Using Pierre's numbers, 1 gallon of diesel equals 10kWh, so the overnight charge would be 7kWh equals about three quarts.The EIA says a gallon of diesel is 137452 BTU, or just over 40 kWH(th). Converted to work in your typical light-duty engine you might get 16 kWh out of it. Your usual "convenience cord" is capable of 1440 W (120 VAC @ 12 A) so a 7-hour charge can yield as much as 10 kWh from a standard wall outlet. PHEV batteries have widely varying capacities; the Prius+ has just 4.4 kWh, the Ford Energi models started out at 7.6 kWh and are going up to 9 kWh next year, and the Pacifica plug-in has 16 kWh. These figures correspond to just over a quart, just under half a gallon and a gallon, respectively.
you spend 18 hours charging to get energy equivalent to roughly 1.2 gallons of diesel per day.If you had a Chrysler Pacifica charging off a standard wall outlet for 18 hours a day, you'd get up to about 1.6 gallons-equivalent. Vehicles with smaller batteries would reach full charge and have to stop; the Fusion reaches full in about 5 hours from your garden-variety wall outlet and about 90 minutes on a Level 2 charger.
To compete with IC, you need to be able to drive hundreds of miles, with a heater blasting hot air, then fuel up in a few minutes and do it again. To get a 300 mile range, you need ten times that amount of energy, or more.You don't need to compete with IC to replace most of your fuel. Most trips are short trips, and engines are very inefficient when cold. If you electrify most or all of the short trips and eliminate most of the cold starts, you've eliminated most of the fuel consumption with it. If you delay the engine starts until the vehicle has left the city, you get rid of the pollution generated in the city. The engine also warms up faster if run under load, improving the efficiency.
Our existing grid is generally pretty heavily loaded.Back in 2004 it would have taken ~180 GW to replace all US gasoline and diesel with electricity. Average electric consumption last year was 458 GW but nameplate generating capacity was 1074 GW. Some of that is unreliable wind and PV and more is loaded-to-max nuclear and limited hydro, but finding 180 GW in that 616 GW difference wouldn't be all that hard. Ironically, it would probably be hardest in California which has lots of vehicles but not much electric demand anymore after chasing out so much industry.
switching over to electric cars will require HUGE increase in the electricity distribution infrastructure, right down to the wall-sockets in every home where the cars are sucking down triphase AC-220 or even 440.Most homes don't have 3-phase service. Your run-of-the-mill Level 2 charger is 208 or 240 VAC 32 A, which is overkill for anything short of a Tesla (most PHEVs only take 16 amps max). You can handle your average commute with a hardware-store extension cord to a NEMA 3-prong outlet. I know this because I do it.
(Don't even say aluminum wiring....we tried that in the 60's and 70's and the result was a lot of burned down houses).Aluminum wire has long been the standard for transmission and has been moving down the chain. Seriously, this stuff is a lot closer than you think.
I assume you actually mean 140KWH, since you don't specify a time frameThe latest Tesla Supercharger is rated at 145 kW. The cars still can't take juice that fast, though.
"Try under 7% losses."That number came with a link to an authoritative source for transmission losses. It's correct.
That doesn't even pass the laugh test.
As battery charge approaches full charge, power conversion loss approaches 50%This page claims 86% round-trip efficiency for the Tesla roadster. It is probably representative of Li-on batteries.
It also wears faster, running while the parts are cold and out of spec.Manufacturers and mechanics recommend driving off as soon as the engine has adequate lubrication. I thought this was common knowledge; I've certainly been reading it for decades.
Once you start working with high currents (like the 440 on the telephone pole coming out of the local substation), you HAVE to work in copper.You haven't been in Home Depot's electrical department lately. They sell a lot of aluminum wire for going from the pole to the meter, and meter to distribution panel. If your house was built in the last 20 years, that's probably what it's got. As I said, this stuff is closer (to you) than you think.
if you want PRACTICAL, all-around, ONLY CAR IN THE FAMILY electric-vehicles, as opposed to a glorified golf cart, then you need 440 triphase to deliver the necessary amount of electrons into those batteries every night.Would you say a Ford Fusion is "a glorified golf cart"?
I have many days when I burn more than 1 gallon of fuel (most days, in fact).Well, fine. If the first 20 miles of each leg didn't burn any fuel, how much would you save? How about 30 miles?
It is absolutely NOT a substitute for a primary, must-be-able-to-travel 300 miles in one day, stay overnight, and come back the next day.I've done over 800 miles in a day in the Fusion, and still averaging 80% fuel savings over the conventional drivetrain. Most days I burn no fuel at all. Last summer my lawn equipment used more fuel than my car (and so did my PWC).
An all-electric vehicle can only handle 20 miles out, stay overnight, and 20 miles back.The Tesla Model 3 is rated at 220 miles range, and the Chevy Bolt is rated 238 miles.
And you know what, I'm ALWAYS going to beat you at this analysis, because I'm an engineer, too.In reality, you get schooled over and over and post not one hyperlink in support of your claims. Facts trump analysis. This stuff is here and it works. 5 years from now you probably won't be able to buy a new vehicle that ISN'T at least partly electric, any more than you can buy leaded mogas at the corner. When your neighbor tells you how great it is to not have to pump gas every few days because he just plugs in the car when he hits the garage, you'll browse plug-ins when you hit the dealership. When you drive one you'll marvel at the quiet and never want anything else.
All of this talk about electric vehicles is sillyUntil you start talking about replacing petroleum with stuff that's cheaper, cleaner, more widely available and not subject to foreign embargoes. You probably have to go a half-mile or more to get gasoline. I'll bet that there's electric power running within 20 feet of your home parking spot, and within 100 at work, the store, and most other places. You might not be able to plug into it (yet), but it's there.
The reason why my total lack of enthusiasm for electric cars is because even getting rid of the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics for electric vehicles, and ONLY electric vehicles, they still can never achieve range and performance beyond glorified golf carts.Tesla P100D 0-60 in 2.28 sec. We really have to catch you up to this century.
That's what's known among the common folk as a bald-faced lie.It's what's known as common knowledge. Lithium-ion battery charge/discharge efficiency, 80-90%. Dunno why you don't bother looking things up, it's all right there.
We've got a freaking millenial ENGINEER who is only aware of only the "good" sides of electric vehiclesMillenial? HA! You are trying to get EVERYTHING wrong, aren't you? I watched live TV of men walking on the freakin' moon. I know the good stuff about electric vehicles because I've owned a plug-in for 5 years and can contrast my experience with half a million personal miles driving both gassers and diesels. I can also tell you what's bad about it (like lack of trunk space, which is already going away as car bodies are redesigned to accomodate batteries elsewhere).
That's because transmission is done at EXTREMELY high voltages with extremely low current (to cut down on resistance losses).Good, you stipulate that they actually are that low. And I know what the distribution voltage is, because when a squirrel took out my power by immolating itself on the pole-pig and blowing the fuse, I asked the guy who came out to fix it.
Yes. That's also the reason the quoted transmission losses are so low.
Wow. You can't even seen the difference between what is being recommended, and what Ford is having their engine do in a vehicle that has to have the absolute highest reliability possible, to overcome consumer distrust of an unproven platform.This is where your understanding fails: it's NOT in a no-load condition. It has MG1 (motor-generator 1) as a load† even if the transmission is in park, and if the traction battery isn't at the top of its charge window it has someplace to save MG1's output. Rather than running without load at 750 RPM idle, it's going faster and lightly loaded for warmup—exactly what the mfgr calls for drivers to do, but under much finer control. (Also important for fuel economy; fast idle is wasteful of fuel, but if the car can squirrel away the power then it isn't being wasted.)
Manufacturer says: Don't warm up your engines before driving.
Ford engine control on hybrid: Warms up the engine in a no-load condition.
Are you SURE you're an engineer? Because you certainly don't seem to have the observation, logic, and critical thinking skills of anyone I've ever known who actually made it through engineering school.Anyone reading this thread is going to ask YOU that question. Your "questions" have answers, but I'm not sure you're paying any attention to them.
"Would you say a Ford Fusion is "a glorified golf cart"?"The Fusion Energi, Prius+ and Chrysler Pacifica plug-in Hybrid ARE plug-in electrics. They also have gas engines. Did you think these things could not exist together?
You're moving the goalpoasts. We were talking about plug-in electrics. Now you're trying to count a hybrid with an ICE as an electric.
It's a hybrid. Hybrids have been pulling freight across this country since the 1930'sDiesel-electrics are not hybrids; they do not have batteries. Railpower Technologies got into the hybrid field a while back with the "Green Goat", and GE wasn't about to be out-done. However, both efforts have languished; GE now says it will build hybrids when customers ask for them. That will be when diesel gets expensive, or government demands emissions cuts that can't be met otherwise.
That shit still isn't allowed in Michigan.Go to your Home Depot in Michigan. I guarantee you'll find aluminum wire there. If I'm doing this right, you can stroll into the store in Dearborn Heights and buy a roll today.
Kill-A-Watt only tells you how much power is going through the plug. It does NOT tell you how much of that power becomes charge in the battery, and how how much of that power is transformed into waste heat.Yes. The energy that goes through the plug is a CEILING on the energy available to drive the wheels. Which I went through in our last exchange. Will you stipulate to that, or are you just disagreeing to be disagreeable?
The first coulomb of charge put onto a dead battery is close to 0% loss by heat. The last coloumb of charge put battery as V(batt) approaches V(max) is at a cost of P(heat) approaches 100%.There you are simply wrong. The loss is the sum of (a) the coulombic loss times the charging voltage and (b) the delta-V between the charging voltage and the discharge voltage at the same point in the charge curve. Li-ion batteries have close to 100% coulombic efficiency (charge returned over charge input). You've already been given info on battery efficiency, there is nothing more I can do for you.
you seem to think that batteries are correctly modeled as ideal capacitorsQuote me to that effect (and no, capacitors have far less than 10% losses or you'd never be able to create e.g. high-Q filters). I'm citing reliable info to you. Facts matter, why do you deny them?
Worse, EVERY SINGLE BATTERY CHEMISTRY has some serious deviation from the ideal battery model.You're flailing here. Why do you bring up irrelevancies? Do you think that anything non-ideal is useless? That makes the engine in your vehicle useless, because it's a long way from an ideal Carnot or even theoretical Otto cycle.
a fully charged NiMH battery will be fully discharged within several daysWeeks, not days. The high rate capability of NiMH is more important to conventional hybrids than self-discharge because the batteries are so small. My suspicion is that they will soon switch to ultracapacitors for non-plug ins, as they are already doing on some hybrid and even all-electric buses.
Batteries suck.Yet you must own a dozen or more items which are useless without batteries. Batteries are the only power source that's fit for purpose. Could you put a combustion engine on your laptop? Would you?
The power company would run at even higher voltage than 7600 V, but doing so would guarantee arcing to ground.Power companies run AC lines as high as 765 kV. The dielectric strength of air is about 3 megavolts per meter. This doesn't mean you can run a 1 megavolt wire a meter off the ground because the electric field is most intense at the conductor and breakdown will start there and arc over. The multiple-conductor lines you see with spreaders between the wires reduce the field intensity and reduce corona loss.
the power companies ALWAYS run with the voltage level as high as they can get away with for the connectionsNot always. The higher the voltage, the more stringent the requirements of the transformers. This generally means bulk (more turns and more air or oil between conductors) which means bigger cores and everything else. That can wipe out savings from using less mass of wire.
The only reasonable use for electricity being the mainstay for propulsion in transportation is electrified railroads and trams.So? Don't demand the full jump to battery-powered vehicles with no ICE. Plug-in hybrids are the sweet spot; aim there. Change point of aim if circumstances change.
... physics and thermodynamics don't give a shit about your preferences and desires for the abolition of hydrocarbon fuels, and people in this country cannot live within the ranges offered by battery-powered vehicles with no ICE.
I've been an engineer for 35 years.Me too.
Solving the problem would mean a 3 magnitudes or better increase in the capabilities of batteries.You seriously think so? Look, what we had 5 years ago was good enough to cut fuel consumption by 80%. Today's stuff is better. Supposedly you're a smart guy, but you have a LOT of trouble getting around your preconceptions. Take a closer look at what's already on showroom floors. Run the numbers.
A 20% (k= 1.2) improvement doesn't mean diddly squat when what is needed is a k=1000 improvement.See, this is how I know you didn't run the numbers. Today's LIBs are about 400 Wh/liter; 1000x that is 400 kWh/liter. Gasoline is less than 9 kWh/liter, of which maybe 3-3.5 is usable! Face it, if you could get a 5x improvement in batteries they would wipe the floor with everything else except in a few niche applications.
The fact is, all of the relevant electronegativity spreads between chemicals are in the range of 1.0 to 2.0 volts.Lithium-ion cells already reach 4.3 volts at full charge, and there's a lot of room to improve electrodes by replacing e.g. graphite with silicon or sulfur. This packs more ions into the same volume/mass.
And that's where it stops. Everything past the breaker box is copper.Not true, I have seen aluminum wire on heavier circuits indoors as well. I think it was on a stove.
The Fusion is a hybrid, not an electric car.DING DING DING DING DING! That's what I've been TELLING you! The Fusion Energi is a plug-in hybrid and it's not terribly hard to get 80% fuel savings over the base model. I should know, I'm doing it.
> Well, fine. If the first 20 miles of each leg didn't burn any fuel, how much would you save? How about 30 miles?That is completely non-responsive to the question. How far are you driving on your typical leg? If the first 20 miles didn't burn any fuel, how much would you wind up consuming?
The improvement in gas mileage from the Toyota Yaris to the Toyota Prius C is roughly 35mpg to 50mpg.
As I note above, for comparable vehicles, it's more like a 60% improvement.You don't define "comparable vehicle". I'm comparing my dashboard readings to the EPA rating of the base model of the same car.
When will we see a Tesla in the Daytona 500?Before you'll see a street-legal Daytona car. Indy cars are already hybrid.
> That shit still isn't allowed in Michigan.All I can say is that I've seen it with my own eyes, and for a professionally-installed circuit with heavier conductors it is probably just as good as the aluminum service wires. That definitively settles the problem of getting industrial quantities of juice to within 20 feet of the car, and there's more than enough copper to go around to handle the rest.
I don't think it's allowed anywhere in the US.
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